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Author Topic: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season  (Read 695 times)

varaider

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2019, 06:54:46 PM »

Always find a way to hate on the man, never fails here...

I said during his last couple years here that he was just starting to come into his own... I'm just glad to see him still balling... I guess most forgot how the man is even lucky to even be alive, this game almost cost him his life... and he still has the heart (LITERALLY) to play it...  So I'll ALWAYS be a fan...

And to see him thriving is a good thing... Mind you, he's on the same team as arguably the best CB in the league, and graded higher than him... And the AFC South is LOADED with CB talent... I believe Kareem Jackson is the best CB on the market right now, Grade-wise and opinion...

(FYI, he graded higher than every CB on our team not named Conley... Ouch, I bet that stings for the haters)
Hayden didn't turn out to be bad.  But honestly he never lived up to his draft status.  And guys like that get cut by the teams that draft them for the most part.  I'm glad he was able to stick somewhere.  Good for him.  The raiders ran out of patience

That's something I have always disagreed with...

IMO, the player is the player...  not the draft pick... So he shouldn't be judged by his pick number, the GM should, because it was the GM (RM) who made him be that certain pick...

Case in point, the perceived top CB of that draft Dee Milliner (9th overall)... is no longer in the league... Or Xavier Rhodes (25th overall), the actual best CB of that draft... still in the league...

So "living up to the draft pick" falls on the GM.... Being a good football player is on the player... JMO...
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ElevatorRaidersfanPA

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2019, 06:06:43 PM »

Always find a way to hate on the man, never fails here...

I said during his last couple years here that he was just starting to come into his own... I'm just glad to see him still balling... I guess most forgot how the man is even lucky to even be alive, this game almost cost him his life... and he still has the heart (LITERALLY) to play it...  So I'll ALWAYS be a fan...

And to see him thriving is a good thing... Mind you, he's on the same team as arguably the best CB in the league, and graded higher than him... And the AFC South is LOADED with CB talent... I believe Kareem Jackson is the best CB on the market right now, Grade-wise and opinion...

(FYI, he graded higher than every CB on our team not named Conley... Ouch, I bet that stings for the haters)
Hayden didn't turn out to be bad.  But honestly he never lived up to his draft status.  And guys like that get cut by the teams that draft them for the most part.  I'm glad he was able to stick somewhere.  Good for him.  The raiders ran out of patience

That's something I have always disagreed with...

IMO, the player is the player...  not the draft pick... So he shouldn't be judged by his pick number, the GM should, because it was the GM (RM) who made him be that certain pick...

Case in point, the perceived top CB of that draft Dee Milliner (9th overall)... is no longer in the league... Or Xavier Rhodes (25th overall), the actual best CB of that draft... still in the league...

So "living up to the draft pick" falls on the GM.... Being a good football player is on the player... JMO...
I totally dont think it's fair to hmm player but money is money.  And when the production doesnt meet the money.  How as the owner can u justify keeping them.  Top 10 picks are supposed to be impact players.  And as a dp if hes drafted top.ten then come contract time hes going to go bn for lockdown money.  And ifnthe production doesnt meet what their ask in ng for it makes sense
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Limb Reaper

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2019, 05:36:30 PM »

We can play this micro-analysis bullshit tune all fucking day...bottom line is, did we get any players who, to this point, have made a significant difference?

No?

Then it was a shitty draft.
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varaider

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #33 on: March 01, 2019, 11:53:10 AM »

We can play this micro-analysis bullshit tune all fucking day...bottom line is, did we get any players who, to this point, have made a significant difference?

No?

Then it was a shitty draft.

Conley has definitely made a difference... (8th in the league, passer rating)

Lee has definitely made a difference... (IMO)... Saw great improvement from 2017 - 2018...

Morrow has definitely made a difference... (IMO)... He's made plays damn near every opportunity he's been given, and is our best coverage LB...

Hester would have... (IMO)

And Vanderdoes was injured all last year...  His time to shine might be over, with Hurst, Hall and potentially Quinnen Williams coming here...

More importantly, a draft can't be graded after 1 year... Maybe your 1st round pick can, since they are "supposed" to be immediate impacts...

But never in the history of the NFL have I seen a team draft 7 immediate starters in 7 rounds... Any pick after the 1st/2nd is most likely playing behind someone else until he earns the spot... Take Lee and Morrow for instance, 5th round pick and UDFA... and have beat out just about every LB we've brought here...

Not arguing whether or not you think the draft was shitty... because I can't... I believe drafts take at LEAST 2-3 years to earn any type of grade... (Overall)...
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 11:58:30 AM by varaider »
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Limb Reaper

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #34 on: March 01, 2019, 03:57:59 PM »

Raiders 2018 YPG allowed: 381.4 - 26th

Raiders 2018 PPG allowed: 29.2 - 32nd

Raiders 2018 W-L record: 4-12

So I would argue that none of those guys made ANY difference at all. They all contributed to a "naked bum fight in the middle of I-5" cluster fuck.

You can write a 12 page essay on how they were a positive factor, but it won't mean dick.

Scoreboard says different.
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varaider

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2019, 05:45:14 PM »

Raiders 2018 YPG allowed: 381.4 - 26th

Raiders 2018 PPG allowed: 29.2 - 32nd

Raiders 2018 W-L record: 4-12

So I would argue that none of those guys made ANY difference at all. They all contributed to a "naked bum fight in the middle of I-5" cluster fuck.

You can write a 12 page essay on how they were a positive factor, but it won't mean dick.

Scoreboard says different.

So 1-2 players is supposed to change ALL that???  Or how about starting Reggie Nelson, Eric Harris, Rashaad Melvin, Derrick Johnson, and 2-3 DL that were 35+... or trading/releasing away your top 3 run/pass defenders... (Mack, Irvin, Autry)

Conley and his 8th passer rating, and least yards/receptions given up on the team, SURELY contributed (in a positive way)... maybe you should look at all the guys around him, especially in the secondary and in terms of pass rush... NONE of them were drafted in 2017...

No essay needed...

(P.S... Just because I space my sentences out, doesn't make it an "essay")

The scoreboard is a TEAM effort (Coaching included)... Not a single year DRAFT CLASS effort...
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 05:49:08 PM by varaider »
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Limb Reaper

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2019, 05:24:04 PM »

Not one or two players...one or two DRAFTS were supposed to change it.

What do we have to show for the last 5 or 6 years worth of picks?

Meanwhile, Kansas Shitty is oozing talent out of practically every pore and have the reigning MVP.

We are losing this arms race badly. Like doing a face plant when the starting gun is fired bad.

Is it fair to judge last year's picks based on the results given the upheaval levied by JG? No.

But holistically, we're sucking hind tit in the division. You can point to vague stats in an effort to show me a gem or two in this pile of turds, but a true gem would be obvious to all. He would stand out. People would be saying "So and so is really looking like steal for the Raiders."

But nobody is saying that. Using individual rankings for positional players to support your argument doesn't move the meter when discussing a TEAM sport. So what if Conley ranked eighth in pole vaulting over Pop Tarts? As a team, our defense was TERRIBLE.
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varaider

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2019, 06:19:56 PM »

Not one or two players...one or two DRAFTS were supposed to change it.

What do we have to show for the last 5 or 6 years worth of picks?

Meanwhile, Kansas Shitty is oozing talent out of practically every pore and have the reigning MVP.

We are losing this arms race badly. Like doing a face plant when the starting gun is fired bad.

Is it fair to judge last year's picks based on the results given the upheaval levied by JG? No.

But holistically, we're sucking hind tit in the division. You can point to vague stats in an effort to show me a gem or two in this pile of turds, but a true gem would be obvious to all. He would stand out. People would be saying "So and so is really looking like steal for the Raiders."

But nobody is saying that. Using individual rankings for positional players to support your argument doesn't move the meter when discussing a TEAM sport. So what if Conley ranked eighth in pole vaulting over Pop Tarts? As a team, our defense was TERRIBLE.

I'm willing to bet our last 5-6 years drafts are no better or worse than KC's...  WHy can't our 2014 draft, be just as, if not better than their 2017 draft...  (Mack, Carr, Jackson, Ellis) to their (Mahomes and Hunt)...  Like I've always said, teams hit or miss at around the same exact rate... The draft is not the ONLY factor in a team's success or failure... So just like you say don't pick out individual stats... You're doing the exact same thing with individual DRAFT picks... A draft pick... IS ONE PLAYER... not a TEAM... Correct?  A draft class is a collection of maybe 6-10 players... not a TEAM... Correct?  (with only maybe 1-2 expected to start/make an impact the same year)

You do realize their defense was shittier than ours last year...  Shittier in 2017 as well...  They just fired their entire defensive coaching staff...

Oozing talent?  Or did they just luck up on their QB pick... Who, btw... wasn't a "steal"... In fact, he cost them a 1st and a 3rd

Quote
"K.C. traded the No. 27 overall pick, a third-round pick and their 2018 first-round selection to the Buffalo Bills to move up to No. 10 to select Mahomes."

Woopty-doo... Mahomes had an awesome rookie year...  So did Cam Newton... So did Dak Prescott... So did fuckin RGIII...  Let's see if he follows it up, or let's see if after a year's worth of film, and no Hunt on the roster, if DCs can figure him out, slow him down and take advantage of the worst defense in the league...

They luckily drafted the fastest WR in the NFL, (a guy who beat his pregnant girlfriend, btw) but they still drafted him... In the 5th round... he could have easily wnet earlier, without that "blemish"...

Where is this other talent?  Kelce?  Ok... Cook was pretty good for us this year, granted, he's no Kelce, but he was damn good this year......

Also, let's also factor in, during Reid's entire tenure with the Chiefs (since 2013)... We've had 3 HCs, 5 OCs and 4 DCs... That's a LOT of different DRAFTING philosophies, don't you think?  Kind of hard to mesh all those philosophies into 1... Especially, if you fire the entire staff that drafted the 2017 class... Hmmmm... So coaching and coaching CONSISTENCY has something to do with it as well......

Just some things to take into consideration...

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varaider

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2019, 06:25:08 PM »

Long story short...

The Chiefs lucked up on their QB pick... (when we supposedly didn't need a QB)...

That's like you buying the iPhone 10 last week (Carr)... and the iPhone 11 (Mahomes) came out today... What you gonna do?

And without Tyreek Hill, they are just as mortal as any other decent offense in the league...

Couple that with coaching consistency and a unified draft room for the last 5-6 years...

Maybe it's not the DRAFTS that have killed us... Maybe it's our complete clusterfuck that's been going on from the Coaching staff and above... Maybe... Justtttt Maybe...
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ElevatorRaidersfanPA

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2019, 08:01:37 PM »

The grades are in.  And they get  capital S for SHIT.  Fuck them our team sucks.  Moving on.  =) dropping knowledge bitchs
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Limb Reaper

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2019, 08:39:07 PM »

Long story short...

The Chiefs lucked up on their QB pick... (when we supposedly didn't need a QB)...

That's like you buying the iPhone 10 last week (Carr)... and the iPhone 11 (Mahomes) came out today... What you gonna do?

And without Tyreek Hill, they are just as mortal as any other decent offense in the league...

Couple that with coaching consistency and a unified draft room for the last 5-6 years...

Maybe it's not the DRAFTS that have killed us... Maybe it's our complete clusterfuck that's been going on from the Coaching staff and above... Maybe... Justtttt Maybe...

LOL...as usual you're missing the point. Who is responsible for those drafts if not the clusterfuck of a coaching staff and front office? I really don't see how those can be mutually exclusive.

Or perhaps you don't want to agree with the core of my argument. The FACT that we have failed to assemble a formidable team over the tenure of the previous GM is just that...FACT. There is damning evidence everywhere you look.

Now, don't mistake this as an endorsement on my part of the current regime. They have yet to do dick IMHO.

But I HATE our tendency as a fan base to poke through the garbage that is our roster, putting ANYTHING that might pass for edible on the underside of an inverted trash can lid and  then ringing the dinner bell.

Let's call it what it is...GARBAGE. Our roster sucks. Whose fault is it?

WHO GIVES A FUCK?

It needs to be fixed.
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Limb Reaper

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2019, 08:48:42 PM »

Quote
Woopty-doo... Mahomes had an awesome rookie year...  So did Cam Newton... So did Dak Prescott... So did fuckin RGIII...  Let's see if he follows it up, or let's see if after a year's worth of film, and no Hunt on the roster, if DCs can figure him out, slow him down and take advantage of the worst defense in the league...

Downplay it all you want.

The FACT is that the Chiefs did not get lucky. They correctly identified their guy and paid extra to get him. Their personnel people know what the fuck they're doing.

Meanwhile, our collective brain trust got fleeced in a trade down last year, chose a second round left tackle project at fifteen, and allowed Derwin James to fall right into the lap of a hated rival.

The Chiefs have not been perfect, and I fully expect the league to catch up with Mahomes to an extent next season. But can you honestly say that if you could wave a magic wand and switch rosters with them, you WOULDN'T?

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varaider

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2019, 09:54:43 PM »

Long story short...

The Chiefs lucked up on their QB pick... (when we supposedly didn't need a QB)...

That's like you buying the iPhone 10 last week (Carr)... and the iPhone 11 (Mahomes) came out today... What you gonna do?

And without Tyreek Hill, they are just as mortal as any other decent offense in the league...

Couple that with coaching consistency and a unified draft room for the last 5-6 years...

Maybe it's not the DRAFTS that have killed us... Maybe it's our complete clusterfuck that's been going on from the Coaching staff and above... Maybe... Justtttt Maybe...

LOL...as usual you're missing the point. Who is responsible for those drafts if not the clusterfuck of a coaching staff and front office? I really don't see how those can be mutually exclusive.

Or perhaps you don't want to agree with the core of my argument. The FACT that we have failed to assemble a formidable team over the tenure of the previous GM is just that...FACT. There is damning evidence everywhere you look.

Now, don't mistake this as an endorsement on my part of the current regime. They have yet to do dick IMHO.

But I HATE our tendency as a fan base to poke through the garbage that is our roster, putting ANYTHING that might pass for edible on the underside of an inverted trash can lid and  then ringing the dinner bell.

Let's call it what it is...GARBAGE. Our roster sucks. Whose fault is it?

WHO GIVES A FUCK?

It needs to be fixed.

2016... ONE (uno) game away from the #1 seed in the AFC and homefield advantage throughout the playoffs... Any other questions?

And the 2017 team, with the addition of Lynch and Cook was an even better team (talent-wise)... Right or wrong?

Mutually exclusive?  So it seems you're missing my point... Multiple coaching regimes over the same period you speak of... You don't think 4 different HCs, 5 different OC's, 4 different DCs have anything to do with the development of said draft classes?  ESPECIALLY the 2017 class, who's entire Coaching staff was FIRED after their 1st season???

I hate that tendency as well... but you have to factor in OTHER things, rather than just the simplicity of blaming a draft class... That's all I'm saying, brother...

It it does matter who's fault it is... if you're playing the blame game... Or else what are you talking about?
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varaider

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2019, 10:07:16 PM »

Quote
Woopty-doo... Mahomes had an awesome rookie year...  So did Cam Newton... So did Dak Prescott... So did fuckin RGIII...  Let's see if he follows it up, or let's see if after a year's worth of film, and no Hunt on the roster, if DCs can figure him out, slow him down and take advantage of the worst defense in the league...

Downplay it all you want.

The FACT is that the Chiefs did not get lucky. They correctly identified their guy and paid extra to get him. Their personnel people know what the fuck they're doing.

Meanwhile, our collective brain trust got fleeced in a trade down last year, chose a second round left tackle project at fifteen, and allowed Derwin James to fall right into the lap of a hated rival.

The Chiefs have not been perfect, and I fully expect the league to catch up with Mahomes to an extent next season. But can you honestly say that if you could wave a magic wand and switch rosters with them, you WOULDN'T?

So again... you're blaming the DRAFTEES for getting DRAFTED at certain spots?  WTF are they supposed to do... When Gruden calls them... say "Uhhhh, no thanks, can you wait until the 3rd round to draft me, because I don't think I'm 1st/2nd round material"... ? ? ?  lmao... Cmon bro...

And they did get lucky, just as we got lucky... by having Carr fall to us in the 2nd, and him turning into our "franchise QB"...

So did we not know what we were doing, by drafting Mack, Carr, Jackson and Ellis in the 2014 draft?  Cooper the next year, Joseph the next, Conley the next... All starters and pieces we DON'T have to worry about moving forward?  (Minus Mack and Cooper, of course, because this regime traded them away)...

And I beg to differ that we got "fleeced"... they traded down and STILL got their guy... They believed a LT was the biggest need, considering Penn's situation, and the piss poor pass protection from the previous year... And I believe the picks they acquired were manipulated to draft Hurst and Key... 2 cornerstones of their defense moving forward...

Like I said, without them taking a risk on a pregnant woman beater, TWO woman beaters to be exact (Hunt)... Mahomes would have HALF the success he had last season... After Hunt was released, their offense took a huge hit... in fact, that's when they started LOSING games...

Not to mention the Patriots put out the blueprint to slow them down... and exposed them, One that MANY teams will follow next year and years to come... It's an offense driven league, Even the best defenses in the league could not shut down Mahomes/Hill/Kelce last year...  No matter what, POINTS win football games, period... You can have the greatest defense of all time, but it STILL takes POINTS to win the game... 
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Limb Reaper

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Re: Grading Raiders 2017 draft class after second season
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2019, 10:24:40 AM »

2016... ONE (uno) game away from the #1 seed in the AFC and homefield advantage throughout the playoffs... Any other questions?

An aberration...we've had ONE (uno) playoff appearance in the last SIXTEEN years. Oh, and the only reason we didn't win the division a couple years ago is that we couldn't beat the fucking Chiefs. That team was a paper tiger that was only in that position due to some ballsy calls that panned out and a few lucky bounces.

And the 2017 team, with the addition of Lynch and Cook was an even better team (talent-wise)... Right or wrong?

Again, whether I agree or not is irrelevant. Just to throw you a bone, I will concede that it was a "better team talent-wise"...so WHAT? What did they do? Our layperson's assessment of talent level does not negate the fact that they finished 6-10.

Mutually exclusive?  So it seems you're missing my point... Multiple coaching regimes over the same period you speak of... You don't think 4 different HCs, 5 different OC's, 4 different DCs have anything to do with the development of said draft classes?  ESPECIALLY the 2017 class, who's entire Coaching staff was FIRED after their 1st season???

Again, you're missing MY point. I don't care about how good or not good these players are. You're attempting to evaluate the draft class on all these various criteria...it doesn't matter because we SUCK. They might be good, they might be NOT good. Whatever...the final result was still 4-12. As a whole, they did not perform well. We all had high hopes for Conley. His numbers were decent last season. That's great.

But we still had one of the worst defenses in the league.

I hate that tendency as well... but you have to factor in OTHER things, rather than just the simplicity of blaming a draft class... That's all I'm saying, brother...

I'm not dumping all blame on these players. I'm saying that I think it's a waste of time to try to sift through a lousy 4-12 campaign looking for flashes of competence.

It it does matter who's fault it is... if you're playing the blame game... Or else what are you talking about?

I've stated it in plain English repeatedly. This class cannot be considered "good" when the end result is so BAD.
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