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Author Topic: It's obvious that Carr needs to go  (Read 3085 times)

RaiderInDenver

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2019, 11:09:18 AM »

All I'm sayin... It's going on year 6...

Is he supposed to show us something more than he already has?  2016 might have been his peak...

Gruden's offense isn't designed to push the ball down the field... So a repeat of 2016 won't likely happen... Musgrave's offense focused on deeper route concepts and pushing the ball downfield...

Derek Carr is to Raiders... as Matthew Stafford is to Lions...

We have 3 picks.

If Kyler Murray slips to 24 or later? Why the hell would we not take the kid???? Dude is a badass...

Is it just me or does Carr look like he needs to start working out? Year 6. At the very least we suck next year and draft a QB in 2020.
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Earl

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2019, 11:37:00 AM »

I'm still on Carr's side here. Too many instances around the league of QB's coming into their own later in their careers. Seems like on the Raiders alone we could name a couple of them. Plunkett and Gannon. Payton Manning had a couple good seasons in his first 5 years but most were bad. If you look at the stats there are definitely some  similarities between Carr and Mannings first 5 seasons. I didn't dig into the Colts history but if my memory is working correctly there may be some similarities in the direction of the clubs during this time also.

I think it's too early to talk about getting rid of him. Now, that being said, I am all for bringing in strong talent to compete for the position. If he gets beat out in camp and practice, well then it is what it is.



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JackTatum

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #77 on: January 15, 2019, 11:45:08 AM »

I'm still on Carr's side here. Too many instances around the league of QB's coming into their own later in their careers. Seems like on the Raiders alone we could name a couple of them. Plunkett and Gannon. Payton Manning had a couple good seasons in his first 5 years but most were bad. If you look at the stats there are definitely some  similarities between Carr and Mannings first 5 seasons. I didn't dig into the Colts history but if my memory is working correctly there may be some similarities in the direction of the clubs during this time also.

I think it's too early to talk about getting rid of him. Now, that being said, I am all for bringing in strong talent to compete for the position. If he gets beat out in camp and practice, well then it is what it is.

Doesn't his massive contract kick in this year? As much as it sucks, if he isn't the guy trade him. Otherwise it'll be hard as hell to do so later.
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Earl

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #78 on: January 15, 2019, 12:14:09 PM »

I'm still on Carr's side here. Too many instances around the league of QB's coming into their own later in their careers. Seems like on the Raiders alone we could name a couple of them. Plunkett and Gannon. Payton Manning had a couple good seasons in his first 5 years but most were bad. If you look at the stats there are definitely some  similarities between Carr and Mannings first 5 seasons. I didn't dig into the Colts history but if my memory is working correctly there may be some similarities in the direction of the clubs during this time also.

I think it's too early to talk about getting rid of him. Now, that being said, I am all for bringing in strong talent to compete for the position. If he gets beat out in camp and practice, well then it is what it is.

Doesn't his massive contract kick in this year? As much as it sucks, if he isn't the guy trade him. Otherwise it'll be hard as hell to do so later.

Maybe, But I have no idea how his contract is structured. It may be back loaded so that he gets the most money in the later years of the contract. When we are in Vegas and not paying lots of taxes.

I feel like with all the changes made during Carr's tenure we couldn't necessarily say whether he is or isn't the guy. Especially with all the changes last year alone. But when the time comes that the pay is outweighing the performance, and the organization doesn't feel he is living up to the contract, then they should point to the stats and ask him to restructure. Then the ball is in his court. If he wants to be a Raider and understands he hasn't performed well, he'll restructure. If not, on to the next.
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varaider

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #79 on: January 15, 2019, 03:12:12 PM »

The only way for him to "compete" in TC, is to bring in legit competition...

You guys can't say, "Carr needs to be the man moving forward" and then be "ok" with competition...

True comp for Carr will have to be a high profile draft pick or Free Agent, period... a 4th round prospect or league journeyman won't do the trick...

So either Carr is the guy... or you draft someone to BE the guy.... there is no in between...
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RaiderInDenver

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #80 on: January 15, 2019, 03:24:21 PM »

The only way for him to "compete" in TC, is to bring in legit competition...

You guys can't say, "Carr needs to be the man moving forward" and then be "ok" with competition...

True comp for Carr will have to be a high profile draft pick or Free Agent, period... a 4th round prospect or league journeyman won't do the trick...

So either Carr is the guy... or you draft someone to BE the guy.... there is no in between...

I hope Murray blows off baseball.

I would love to see him in a Raider Jersey. Freaking put the fear of losing his job into Carr’s brain. I could care less how tall Murray is. He’s a badass

I do not see Carr being Grudens guy when we hit Vegas. It’s just a gut feeling
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Earl

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #81 on: January 15, 2019, 04:23:06 PM »

The only way for him to "compete" in TC, is to bring in legit competition...

Agreed


You guys can't say, "Carr needs to be the man moving forward" and then be "ok" with competition...

Bullshit! We can do exactly that. Give me one good reason we can't?


True comp for Carr will have to be a high profile draft pick or Free Agent, period... a 4th round prospect or league journeyman won't do the trick...

So either Carr is the guy... or you draft someone to BE the guy.... there is no in between...

You wouldn't have considered Plunkett or Gannon League Journeyman? What about Kurt Warner? HE went undrafted, spent time in the Arena League for gods sake's, and bagged groceries before winning superbowls. Brady went in the 6th. Russel Wilson went in the 3rd. Montana went in the 3rd. Thiesman went in the 4th. Gannon went in the 4th. There are more but I would like to think you would get the picture. (Let me guess, "you could name more, but you didn't so you can't" is coming my way)

So really, Carr could be the guy. And we could draft legit competition in then later rounds.

It's quite possible.


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varaider

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #82 on: January 15, 2019, 04:45:53 PM »

The only way for him to "compete" in TC, is to bring in legit competition...

Agreed


You guys can't say, "Carr needs to be the man moving forward" and then be "ok" with competition...

Bullshit! We can do exactly that. Give me one good reason we can't?


True comp for Carr will have to be a high profile draft pick or Free Agent, period... a 4th round prospect or league journeyman won't do the trick...

So either Carr is the guy... or you draft someone to BE the guy.... there is no in between...

You wouldn't have considered Plunkett or Gannon League Journeyman? What about Kurt Warner? HE went undrafted, spent time in the Arena League for gods sake's, and bagged groceries before winning superbowls. Brady went in the 6th. Russel Wilson went in the 3rd. Montana went in the 3rd. Thiesman went in the 4th. Gannon went in the 4th. There are more but I would like to think you would get the picture. (Let me guess, "you could name more, but you didn't so you can't" is coming my way)

So really, Carr could be the guy. And we could draft legit competition in then later rounds.

It's quite possible.

If you say so...

Either Carr is the man... Or he isn't... there is no in between...

You think some no name is going to come here and push Carr out of the starting spot, so be it...

I don't see it happening... Especially when DC get's 99% of the reps... and maybe 20 snaps total in preseason...

If it's not a big name draftee or Free Agent, it won't happen... What comes with those are fan and media pressure. (which are usually the driving factors of QB changes).. Not going to get that with Joe Shmoe from the 6th round... or Nathan Peterman... Sorry you feel differently...

You're naming all these past guys...   How about naming one RIGHT NOW... that could come and challenge Carr, not named Nick Foles (big name FA I mentioned above), who'll probably get a STARTING gig somewhere next season... Or one of these 6th round picks you must know about that the world doesn't...  I'll wait... as if 2018 didn't present MORE THAN ENOUGH opportunities for one of these "God-Send" journeymen to show themselves...

Or are you just mad again, because I expresses MY opinion... eh?  Sure was an awful lot of "personal" vibe coming from that comment.. LOL!

« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 04:56:23 PM by varaider »
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Earl

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #83 on: January 15, 2019, 05:00:39 PM »

The only way for him to "compete" in TC, is to bring in legit competition...

Agreed


You guys can't say, "Carr needs to be the man moving forward" and then be "ok" with competition...

Bullshit! We can do exactly that. Give me one good reason we can't?


True comp for Carr will have to be a high profile draft pick or Free Agent, period... a 4th round prospect or league journeyman won't do the trick...

So either Carr is the guy... or you draft someone to BE the guy.... there is no in between...

You wouldn't have considered Plunkett or Gannon League Journeyman? What about Kurt Warner? HE went undrafted, spent time in the Arena League for gods sake's, and bagged groceries before winning superbowls. Brady went in the 6th. Russel Wilson went in the 3rd. Montana went in the 3rd. Thiesman went in the 4th. Gannon went in the 4th. There are more but I would like to think you would get the picture. (Let me guess, "you could name more, but you didn't so you can't" is coming my way)

So really, Carr could be the guy. And we could draft legit competition in then later rounds.

It's quite possible.

If you say so...

Either Carr is the man... Or he isn't... there is no in between...

You think some no name is going to come here and push Carr out of the starting spot, so be it...

I don't see it happening... Especially when DC get's 99% of the reps... and maybe 20 snaps total in preseason...

If it's not a big name draftee or Free Agent, it won't happen... What comes with those are fan and media pressure. (which are usually the driving factors of QB changes).. Not going to get that with Joe Shmoe from the 6th round... or Nathan Peterman... Sorry you feel differently...

I would hardly call any of the names I mentioned as a Joe Shmoe type players. All are former pro-bowlers, Superbowl winners, and/or Hall of Famer's. But OK.

I would agree that as rounds (draft) or years (journeyman) go by, the odds of finding a gem get worse. But it's still a possibility that seems to happen at least fairly often.

I'm not sorry I feel differently. Nor am I sorry you feel differently. We can disagree and that is fine. I'm good with that. I feel there can be plenty of in between and in between opinions. And I will respect anyone's opinion as long as the respect flows both ways.  :cheers

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varaider

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #84 on: January 15, 2019, 05:13:48 PM »

I would hardly call any of the names I mentioned as a Joe Shmoe type players. All are former pro-bowlers, Superbowl winners, and/or Hall of Famer's. But OK.

ALL HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO CHANCE OF REPLACING DEREK CARR ON THE OAKLAND RAIDERS! 
So obviously, they aren't included in my "Joe Shmoe" reference... I'm talking about 2019 Derek Carr my brother... Not NFL Films...

I would agree that as rounds (draft) or years (journeyman) go by, the odds of finding a gem get worse. But it's still a possibility that seems to happen at least fairly often.

Again, who is this prodigal savior you speak of?  Because without a name, wouldn't "Joe Shmoe" be an accurate assessment... (Considering Joe Shmoe basically means a nobody)

I'm not sorry I feel differently. Nor am I sorry you feel differently. We can disagree and that is fine. I'm good with that. I feel there can be plenty of in between and in between opinions. And I will respect anyone's opinion as long as the respect flows both ways.  :cheers

I'm just not sure what you're disagreeing with, that's all...  None of the guys you mentioned are suiting up for the Raiders.... And all I said, was it would have to be a "big name" draft pick, or "big name" FA to legitimately challenge him for his spot... Or it would be no challenge at all...

« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 05:16:16 PM by varaider »
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varaider

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #85 on: January 15, 2019, 05:17:12 PM »

The only way for him to "compete" in TC, is to bring in legit competition...

Agreed


You guys can't say, "Carr needs to be the man moving forward" and then be "ok" with competition...

Bullshit! We can do exactly that. Give me one good reason we can't?


True comp for Carr will have to be a high profile draft pick or Free Agent, period... a 4th round prospect or league journeyman won't do the trick...

So either Carr is the guy... or you draft someone to BE the guy.... there is no in between...

You wouldn't have considered Plunkett or Gannon League Journeyman? What about Kurt Warner? HE went undrafted, spent time in the Arena League for gods sake's, and bagged groceries before winning superbowls. Brady went in the 6th. Russel Wilson went in the 3rd. Montana went in the 3rd. Thiesman went in the 4th. Gannon went in the 4th. There are more but I would like to think you would get the picture. (Let me guess, "you could name more, but you didn't so you can't" is coming my way)

So really, Carr could be the guy. And we could draft legit competition in then later rounds.

It's quite possible.

If you say so...

Either Carr is the man... Or he isn't... there is no in between...

You think some no name is going to come here and push Carr out of the starting spot, so be it...

I don't see it happening... Especially when DC get's 99% of the reps... and maybe 20 snaps total in preseason...

If it's not a big name draftee or Free Agent, it won't happen... What comes with those are fan and media pressure. (which are usually the driving factors of QB changes).. Not going to get that with Joe Shmoe from the 6th round... or Nathan Peterman... Sorry you feel differently...

I would hardly call any of the names I mentioned as a Joe Shmoe type players. All are former pro-bowlers, Superbowl winners, and/or Hall of Famer's. But OK.

I would agree that as rounds (draft) or years (journeyman) go by, the odds of finding a gem get worse. But it's still a possibility that seems to happen at least fairly often.

I'm not sorry I feel differently. Nor am I sorry you feel differently. We can disagree and that is fine. I'm good with that. I feel there can be plenty of in between and in between opinions. And I will respect anyone's opinion as long as the respect flows both ways.  :cheers

And I edited this quoted comment, before you posted...
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Earl

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #86 on: January 15, 2019, 06:27:37 PM »

I would hardly call any of the names I mentioned as a Joe Shmoe type players. All are former pro-bowlers, Superbowl winners, and/or Hall of Famer's. But OK.

ALL HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO CHANCE OF REPLACING DEREK CARR ON THE OAKLAND RAIDERS! 
So obviously, they aren't included in my "Joe Shmoe" reference... I'm talking about 2019 Derek Carr my brother... Not NFL Films...

Ok, but all of them were either late round picks or league journeyman. I'm sure the late rounders weren't considered big names (obvious since they went late rounds) and the journeymen weren't considered to be franchise QB's. (since their previous teams let them go or traded them) But they still came in, changed minds, and won Championships. So who the Joe Shmoe is in 2019 could be anyone. It could even be Peterman! (Ha! I really doubt it though!)

I would agree that as rounds (draft) or years (journeyman) go by, the odds of finding a gem get worse. But it's still a possibility that seems to happen at least fairly often.

Again, who is this prodigal savior you speak of?  Because without a name, wouldn't "Joe Shmoe" be an accurate assessment... (Considering Joe Shmoe basically means a nobody)


IMO it would be an accurate assessment if Joe Schmoe meant anybody instead of nobody. The prodigal savior could be anybody. Take your pick. Who's some free agent QB's this year? Tyrod Taylor, Fitz, Osweiler. I can look at most and think it couldn't happen, but the fact is it could happen to any of them. The next team they are on could be the team that everything seems to fit together and they make huge strides in their game. 


I'm not sorry I feel differently. Nor am I sorry you feel differently. We can disagree and that is fine. I'm good with that. I feel there can be plenty of in between and in between opinions. And I will respect anyone's opinion as long as the respect flows both ways.  :cheers

I'm just not sure what you're disagreeing with, that's all...  None of the guys you mentioned are suiting up for the Raiders.... And all I said, was it would have to be a "big name" draft pick, or "big name" FA to legitimately challenge him for his spot... Or it would be no challenge at all...

I'm just disagreeing on your opinion that it would have to be a big name at all. It could be anybody. As we look at players from one end of the spectrum to the other (big name to no name) the odds of finding that legitimate challenger decrease. But it can still happen and does. 

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varaider

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #87 on: January 15, 2019, 07:25:56 PM »

I would hardly call any of the names I mentioned as a Joe Shmoe type players. All are former pro-bowlers, Superbowl winners, and/or Hall of Famer's. But OK.

ALL HAVE ABSOLUTELY ZERO CHANCE OF REPLACING DEREK CARR ON THE OAKLAND RAIDERS! 
So obviously, they aren't included in my "Joe Shmoe" reference... I'm talking about 2019 Derek Carr my brother... Not NFL Films...

Ok, but all of them were either late round picks or league journeyman. I'm sure the late rounders weren't considered big names (obvious since they went late rounds) and the journeymen weren't considered to be franchise QB's. (since their previous teams let them go or traded them) But they still came in, changed minds, and won Championships. So who the Joe Shmoe is in 2019 could be anyone. It could even be Peterman! (Ha! I really doubt it though!)

I would agree that as rounds (draft) or years (journeyman) go by, the odds of finding a gem get worse. But it's still a possibility that seems to happen at least fairly often.

Again, who is this prodigal savior you speak of?  Because without a name, wouldn't "Joe Shmoe" be an accurate assessment... (Considering Joe Shmoe basically means a nobody)


IMO it would be an accurate assessment if Joe Schmoe meant anybody instead of nobody. The prodigal savior could be anybody. Take your pick. Who's some free agent QB's this year? Tyrod Taylor, Fitz, Osweiler. I can look at most and think it couldn't happen, but the fact is it could happen to any of them. The next team they are on could be the team that everything seems to fit together and they make huge strides in their game. 


I'm not sorry I feel differently. Nor am I sorry you feel differently. We can disagree and that is fine. I'm good with that. I feel there can be plenty of in between and in between opinions. And I will respect anyone's opinion as long as the respect flows both ways.  :cheers

I'm just not sure what you're disagreeing with, that's all...  None of the guys you mentioned are suiting up for the Raiders.... And all I said, was it would have to be a "big name" draft pick, or "big name" FA to legitimately challenge him for his spot... Or it would be no challenge at all...

I'm just disagreeing on your opinion that it would have to be a big name at all. It could be anybody. As we look at players from one end of the spectrum to the other (big name to no name) the odds of finding that legitimate challenger decrease. But it can still happen and does.

Again, if you think some no name QB is going to come in here and beat out Carr while getting 2% of the snaps in camp, more power to ya..

If only it were that easy,  no one would have QB problems...

And no, it doesn't happen brother...  I can't even remember (right now) the last time it did, outside of injury or a team having a pathetic start to a season....

I'm telling you, no one is coming here to "beat out" Carr, no one not named Nick Foles, Haskins, Murray or whoever else is projected as a top QB prospect...

And again, mentioning all these old timers doesn't serve a purpose here.  None of them are suiting up... And of course hindsight is 20/20.... 

You keep stretching it to the Old Timers and other teams... What you're suggesting has microscopic to no chance at happening in 2019 with Derek Carr and Gruden's Raiders...  It's either going to be Carr's show... with some lame at backup... Or we'll sign a big name QB or draft one of the top prospects... and have a TRUE quarterback competition...

Tyrod?  Fitz?  Osweiler?  Gtfoh man, lol....  We're not signing ANY of those guys with the hope that they come here and "beat out" Carr for the starting job...  If so.. and if that's your opinion, we're fucking doomed, lol... I get what you're saying, I do... but the chances of that shit happening next season... well...
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 07:56:03 PM by varaider »
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Earl

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #88 on: January 15, 2019, 08:19:31 PM »


Again, if you think some no name QB is going to come in here and beat out Carr while getting 2% of the snaps in camp, more power to ya..

If only it were that easy,  no one would have QB problems...

Who said it was easy?


And no, it doesn't happen brother...  I can't even remember (right now) the last time it did, outside of injury or a team having a pathetic start to a season....

It does happen. Just because you don't remember it doesn't mean it doesn't.

I can understand you dismissing the injury reason for being replaced. But pathetic starts? If the top QB is being replaced by a back up due to pathetic starts it should count as part of this conversation.


I'm telling you, no one is coming here to "beat out" Carr, no one not named Nick Foles, Haskins, Murray or whoever else is projected as a top QB prospect...


UMMM....Foles was a 3rd round pick and is a league journeyman. 4 different stints with 3 different teams (two stints in Philly) in 7 years. While he has had some success it seems no team wants to give him the job. I mean, he was beat out by Keenum with the Rams. So if you think Foles could come in and Beat out Carr you kinda prove my point it can be done.

Quote
On November 16, the Rams named Keenum the starting quarterback after announcing they had benched Foles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Keenum



And again, mentioning all these old timers doesn't serve a purpose here.  None of them are suiting up... And of course hindsight is 20/20.... 

Dude, I've explained the purpose and it is valid. If you don't like it, fine. But the point of bringing them up has a clear link to the subject matter.


You keep stretching it to the Old Timers and other teams... What you're suggesting has microscopic to no chance at happening in 2019 with Derek Carr and Gruden's Raiders...  It's either going to be Carr's show... with some lame at backup... Or we'll sign a big name QB or draft one of the top prospects... and have a TRUE quarterback competition...

Finally, you admit there is a chance it could happen. Was that really that hard?


Tyrod?  Fitz?  Osweiler?  Gtfoh man, lol....

Hey, I agree. Microscopic to no chance. But that is still a chance.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 08:24:16 PM by Earl »
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varaider

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Re: It's obvious that Carr needs to go
« Reply #89 on: January 15, 2019, 09:51:47 PM »


Again, if you think some no name QB is going to come in here and beat out Carr while getting 2% of the snaps in camp, more power to ya..

If only it were that easy,  no one would have QB problems...

Who said it was easy?

Who said YOU said it was easy?


And no, it doesn't happen brother...  I can't even remember (right now) the last time it did, outside of injury or a team having a pathetic start to a season....

It does happen. Just because you don't remember it doesn't mean it doesn't.

I can understand you dismissing the injury reason for being replaced. But pathetic starts? If the top QB is being replaced by a back up due to pathetic starts it should count as part of this conversation.

Example/s?

Mind you, we're talking about COMPETITION... that usually happens in Camp... Not after a starter has been declared and the season is underway... So I think pathetic starts and injuries shouldn't count...  Losing your job because of poor play, is not always the same as being beaten out... IMO...

Schaub didn't play bad... Carr just played better... and was a 2nd round pick, which validated him being elevated so early... Alex Smith didn't play bad, Mahomes was thought of as being better for the future...


I'm telling you, no one is coming here to "beat out" Carr, no one not named Nick Foles, Haskins, Murray or whoever else is projected as a top QB prospect...


UMMM....Foles was a 3rd round pick and is a league journeyman. 4 different stints with 3 different teams (two stints in Philly) in 7 years. While he has had some success it seems no team wants to give him the job. I mean, he was beat out by Keenum with the Rams. So if you think Foles could come in and Beat out Carr you kinda prove my point it can be done.

Quote
On November 16, the Rams named Keenum the starting quarterback after announcing they had benched Foles

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Case_Keenum


I never said Foles would come in and beat out Carr... I said Foles is about the ONLY QB on the market that can come and LEGITIMATELY challenge Carr for the starting spot... THAT'S what I said...

And Foles is the exception to the rule... I mean, he's a Super Bowl winning QB bro... And once again stepped in and led his team to the playoffs and nearly another NFC Championship birth...

He is in no way at the level of Taylor, Fitz or Osweiler... For you to think so, kinda proves my point...


And again, mentioning all these old timers doesn't serve a purpose here.  None of them are suiting up... And of course hindsight is 20/20.... 

Dude, I've explained the purpose and it is valid. If you don't like it, fine. But the point of bringing them up has a clear link to the subject matter.

Not about liking it, it's just we're talking about 2019... and you're talking about instances from 10-20-30-40 years ago brother... So I definitely don't see the link...

Unless you're saying that Taylor, Fitz and Osweiler are the same as Plunkett, Gannon and Warner... (Yikes)... If you say so bro... I think those 3 are exactly what they are and what they've shown...  You think different?  Well, this offseason, I expect you to be beating the drum to sign these guys when they become available... (I won't forget)...


You keep stretching it to the Old Timers and other teams... What you're suggesting has microscopic to no chance at happening in 2019 with Derek Carr and Gruden's Raiders...  It's either going to be Carr's show... with some lame at backup... Or we'll sign a big name QB or draft one of the top prospects... and have a TRUE quarterback competition...

Finally, you admit there is a chance it could happen. Was that really that hard?

Clearly you missed the sarcasm... No chance that happens in 2019... Care to make a wager?


Tyrod?  Fitz?  Osweiler?  Gtfoh man, lol....

Hey, I agree. Microscopic to no chance. But that is still a chance.

« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 09:54:25 PM by varaider »
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