RaidersForum.net

Oakland Raiders Fan Community - RaiderForum.net

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: GET YER ASS OUT AND VOTE  (Read 177 times)

Earl

  • Franchise Member
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1109
  • Raider Forum Sponsor
    • View Profile
Re: GET YER ASS OUT AND VOTE
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2018, 12:29:19 PM »

Until they do away with the electoral college and gerrymandering I won’t waste me time.

Go ahead, tell why I’m wrong, it’s just how I feel about it

Uh... the electoral college has nothing to do with this election.  And if it wasn't for the electoral college in the presidential races, states like yours wouldn't have a voice at all. In fact the major coastal states and large cities would pick the president every time which means most of America would be ignored.

The choice is all yours az, it's your right to not vote for whatever reason.

Actually....Most of the America would not be ignored. Most of America would be picking the President. We should not be voting by the amount of land in the country. Its Peoples votes that we should be counting.

You obviously don't understand the term "Representative Republic"... we are not an actual Democracy.  You really want a small, select group of large population areas like NY and Cali selecting the president every time and the suburban & rural areas (actually the majority of the country) not having any say in it?  I don't.

I understand the term and what we are. Doesn't mean I have to think it is right. And if it means that urban area's will choose the Pres every time then yes. I want it that way. I want it that way because I want everybody's vote to count equally. 100%. I believe that the person's vote in LA is just as important as the persons vote in Montana. Period. The end. If the minority believes they have a better way of doing things, they should convince enough people that their way better. Thus becoming the majority, and amending laws/processes in the majorities way of doing things. IF you don't like it, convince enough people to change it. Simple.

Obviously there was good reason to have the electoral college during the founding of our country. But with most things (outside of ideals) the time has passed. There have been a bunch of limitations our founding fathers placed on true democracy that have since been changed. This is the last formality. It needs to be changed.

Well, maybe it's not the "last" thing. There are a few more that could be changed. 8)

No.... after reading your post... I really don't think you do understand what the electoral college is for.  What you are advocating is that the ONLY votes that really count are those from large, specifically concentrated urban areas (which also happen to lean very much to the left).  So in your world, everyone in between coasts will just have to accept whatever those concentrated areas vote for.  That would be more akin to national governance without representation.  That would also dampen voter turnout in those areas since if their votes meant nothing for president, then why vote at all.  I also get the hint you believe the US Constitution/Bill of Rights are antiquated and should be "living and breathing" (changed at the wimp of whoever is in charge at the time).  That's the thinking dictators love.     

My world IS in between the coasts. And pretty much always have been. I've lived in both Urban and Rural areas. And have lived in mostly red states and I currently live in an extremely red state. I am probably more libertarian than anything. (Although I have yet to see a Libertarian candidate I liked much). Socially liberal but Fiscally conservative. I go opposite on lots of other issues too. I AM THE MIDDLE.

But on voting, I do think popular vote should rule. True democracy. I understand it scares people. But when we call ourselves a democratic society (albeit living in a republic) we should live by it. I see that spin! You done spun it around. Saying your vote doesn't count in a straight popular vote. HA! Good stuff. I would think common sense would shine a light on that spin but it ain't so common is it? But really..That is exactly when your vote counts. If your worried about the middle being heard, the Local and State elected officials should keep enough of a diversity in the house and senate that it keeps the President in check. Besides that fact, everyone's voices SHOULD be heard. Bills should be compromised through give and take. But right now the elected officials are so caught up in party bullshit that people aren't getting heard and things aren't getting done.

And I used to be one of those people so turned off by the voting rules, and thinking my vote would never matter, that I never voted. I didn't follow politics until around 2008ish. I didn't vote locally until 2014 and the last presidency was the only I have voted in. I have changed my way of thinking my man. This affects all of us so we need to be educated and involved. We need to vote. Voting is the only way to make the change.

Seems to me that the constitution and the bill of rights are living and breathing documents. Amendments are added every once in a while. Amendments have been changed, somewhat. Prohibition was Amended and then another amendment changed it back. So it kinda already is. I don't think these need to be addressed on a regular basis. But I do feel most policy needs to be updated as we advance as a culture. Voter rights, tax policy, social programs all should be updated with changing times. Changing times cause changing needs and it all should be looked at on a fairly regular basis.

I don't think dictators would like me too much.

Bro... I'm not meaning any disrespect by my posts, but you, like millions of others confuse what we are.  Our form of government is not a democracy...it's a representative republic and a democracy only thru representation.  A true democracy of 320 million people would be pure chaos and rife with fraud... hence representation.  And like I stated, a true democratic election of 320 million people would overwhelmingly give people like you in middle America no national representation in a presidential election at all because of the concentration on the coasts (SF, LA, NY, ect).  That's just a fact and the founders were smart enough to see that.

As far as  the  living and breathing Constitution goes....it is extremely difficult to add an amendment and so it's rarely done.  In this current political climate, getting an amendment would be impossible as it takes 2/3 of both the House and the Senate, then must be agreed upon by 3/4 of the state's legislatures.  (I didn't mention another way: thru a Constitutional Convention of states, but in today's climate, would be very difficult) It was made to be difficult so the whims of one group or political party could not just change it at will.  Like I said, you don't really want a "living and breathing" Constitution because the it was designed to limit the government, not the people.  If it was truly "living and breathing", it could be changed to limit the people and give the government unlimited or much greater power like in tyrannical states.   

 :cheers

Were all good Ghost! I wasn't taking any of this as disrespectful. I am finding it very informative and I am really enjoying this conversation.

But again, there is no confusion on what we are. I understand the fact that we are a Republic. I believe our difference is in ideology.

I am also fully willing to admit that I may be wrong about this. As I pointed out before, I am pretty much a rookie when it comes to these schools of thought. But I don't think that there would be all that much more Chaos and Fraud. I think we are rife with it now. So how much worse could it really get?  ;) 

Yesterday while we were taking about it I was looking up the dates of the passed Amendments and I noticed that it was a pretty big gap between them. I didn't know about what it took to get an Amendment passed, but I did assume that as little as it happens, it would take a lot. Good to know.

Oddly enough I even battle myself when it comes to limiting government. I actually have no issues with big gov when it comes to most Social programs, environmental issues, health care..... (Although I think they need more resources to keep people honest when it comes to them). But on the other hand I actually want Government limited in a bunch of other areas. Like I said, I am the middle. One side of the fence or the other, But just a leg over.  ;D 
Logged

ghostmech

  • HOF Member
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5140
    • View Profile
Re: GET YER ASS OUT AND VOTE
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2018, 03:50:08 PM »

Until they do away with the electoral college and gerrymandering I won’t waste me time.

Go ahead, tell why I’m wrong, it’s just how I feel about it

Uh... the electoral college has nothing to do with this election.  And if it wasn't for the electoral college in the presidential races, states like yours wouldn't have a voice at all. In fact the major coastal states and large cities would pick the president every time which means most of America would be ignored.

The choice is all yours az, it's your right to not vote for whatever reason.

Actually....Most of the America would not be ignored. Most of America would be picking the President. We should not be voting by the amount of land in the country. Its Peoples votes that we should be counting.

You obviously don't understand the term "Representative Republic"... we are not an actual Democracy.  You really want a small, select group of large population areas like NY and Cali selecting the president every time and the suburban & rural areas (actually the majority of the country) not having any say in it?  I don't.

I understand the term and what we are. Doesn't mean I have to think it is right. And if it means that urban area's will choose the Pres every time then yes. I want it that way. I want it that way because I want everybody's vote to count equally. 100%. I believe that the person's vote in LA is just as important as the persons vote in Montana. Period. The end. If the minority believes they have a better way of doing things, they should convince enough people that their way better. Thus becoming the majority, and amending laws/processes in the majorities way of doing things. IF you don't like it, convince enough people to change it. Simple.

Obviously there was good reason to have the electoral college during the founding of our country. But with most things (outside of ideals) the time has passed. There have been a bunch of limitations our founding fathers placed on true democracy that have since been changed. This is the last formality. It needs to be changed.

Well, maybe it's not the "last" thing. There are a few more that could be changed. 8)

No.... after reading your post... I really don't think you do understand what the electoral college is for.  What you are advocating is that the ONLY votes that really count are those from large, specifically concentrated urban areas (which also happen to lean very much to the left).  So in your world, everyone in between coasts will just have to accept whatever those concentrated areas vote for.  That would be more akin to national governance without representation.  That would also dampen voter turnout in those areas since if their votes meant nothing for president, then why vote at all.  I also get the hint you believe the US Constitution/Bill of Rights are antiquated and should be "living and breathing" (changed at the wimp of whoever is in charge at the time).  That's the thinking dictators love.     

My world IS in between the coasts. And pretty much always have been. I've lived in both Urban and Rural areas. And have lived in mostly red states and I currently live in an extremely red state. I am probably more libertarian than anything. (Although I have yet to see a Libertarian candidate I liked much). Socially liberal but Fiscally conservative. I go opposite on lots of other issues too. I AM THE MIDDLE.

But on voting, I do think popular vote should rule. True democracy. I understand it scares people. But when we call ourselves a democratic society (albeit living in a republic) we should live by it. I see that spin! You done spun it around. Saying your vote doesn't count in a straight popular vote. HA! Good stuff. I would think common sense would shine a light on that spin but it ain't so common is it? But really..That is exactly when your vote counts. If your worried about the middle being heard, the Local and State elected officials should keep enough of a diversity in the house and senate that it keeps the President in check. Besides that fact, everyone's voices SHOULD be heard. Bills should be compromised through give and take. But right now the elected officials are so caught up in party bullshit that people aren't getting heard and things aren't getting done.

And I used to be one of those people so turned off by the voting rules, and thinking my vote would never matter, that I never voted. I didn't follow politics until around 2008ish. I didn't vote locally until 2014 and the last presidency was the only I have voted in. I have changed my way of thinking my man. This affects all of us so we need to be educated and involved. We need to vote. Voting is the only way to make the change.

Seems to me that the constitution and the bill of rights are living and breathing documents. Amendments are added every once in a while. Amendments have been changed, somewhat. Prohibition was Amended and then another amendment changed it back. So it kinda already is. I don't think these need to be addressed on a regular basis. But I do feel most policy needs to be updated as we advance as a culture. Voter rights, tax policy, social programs all should be updated with changing times. Changing times cause changing needs and it all should be looked at on a fairly regular basis.

I don't think dictators would like me too much.

Bro... I'm not meaning any disrespect by my posts, but you, like millions of others confuse what we are.  Our form of government is not a democracy...it's a representative republic and a democracy only thru representation.  A true democracy of 320 million people would be pure chaos and rife with fraud... hence representation.  And like I stated, a true democratic election of 320 million people would overwhelmingly give people like you in middle America no national representation in a presidential election at all because of the concentration on the coasts (SF, LA, NY, ect).  That's just a fact and the founders were smart enough to see that.

As far as  the  living and breathing Constitution goes....it is extremely difficult to add an amendment and so it's rarely done.  In this current political climate, getting an amendment would be impossible as it takes 2/3 of both the House and the Senate, then must be agreed upon by 3/4 of the state's legislatures.  (I didn't mention another way: thru a Constitutional Convention of states, but in today's climate, would be very difficult) It was made to be difficult so the whims of one group or political party could not just change it at will.  Like I said, you don't really want a "living and breathing" Constitution because the it was designed to limit the government, not the people.  If it was truly "living and breathing", it could be changed to limit the people and give the government unlimited or much greater power like in tyrannical states.   

 :cheers

Were all good Ghost! I wasn't taking any of this as disrespectful. I am finding it very informative and I am really enjoying this conversation.

But again, there is no confusion on what we are. I understand the fact that we are a Republic. I believe our difference is in ideology.

I am also fully willing to admit that I may be wrong about this. As I pointed out before, I am pretty much a rookie when it comes to these schools of thought. But I don't think that there would be all that much more Chaos and Fraud. I think we are rife with it now. So how much worse could it really get?  ;) 

Yesterday while we were taking about it I was looking up the dates of the passed Amendments and I noticed that it was a pretty big gap between them. I didn't know about what it took to get an Amendment passed, but I did assume that as little as it happens, it would take a lot. Good to know.

Oddly enough I even battle myself when it comes to limiting government. I actually have no issues with big gov when it comes to most Social programs, environmental issues, health care..... (Although I think they need more resources to keep people honest when it comes to them). But on the other hand I actually want Government limited in a bunch of other areas. Like I said, I am the middle. One side of the fence or the other, But just a leg over.  ;D

Good to hear Earl!   :cheers
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.042 seconds with 21 queries.